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Post by Richard El Britannia on Sept 20, 2006 15:27:43 GMT
That's where ghosts and stuff come in ... plus those shoddy 'psychics', but can you ever believe those? People have said they have seen dead loved ones after they died, so maybe they saw a ghost? Another theory, which I cannot back up at all is; say in the afterlife or wherever you go, you can't see your loved ones because it's impossible. Like say leaving the planet and going to other solar systems (I don't think that's possible). Then there's always reincarnation. If we do reincarnate, it's a life after death, but we remember nothing of the past life, thus we cannot contact our loved ones as that person.
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Ramirez
The Reincarnation Of Benjamin Breeg
Lucifer was just an angel that was led astray...
Posts: 575
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Post by Ramirez on Sept 20, 2006 15:30:01 GMT
So either way, whatever point we argue neither side is going to win. I guess we shall have to find out when we die... Of course... If you do die and there is nothingness its pretty much DUH!!! You can't reflect on if you were wrong or right.
I am just going to stick with the logical side.
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Otzlowe
Enigmatic Horror
How many miles to heaven? I think I'm getting close.
Posts: 669
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Post by Otzlowe on Sept 20, 2006 20:11:09 GMT
I have to agree with the statement that we won't find out until we die... but I have one thing to say about science.
In terms of Ghosts and such, we have found some pretty creepy things that we can't explan, sure, some is staged, but some of it also has reality to it. That, and sure, you can't scientifically prove that a higher power doesn't exist, and that when you die, you just die, or if something otherworldly happens. The thing is... you can't scientifically prove that those things DON'T happen. Science doesn't have a hold in that area, I know a lot of people are going to use that in their argument, but you really can't... you have to have some fact first, before you can use science to prove something, in this case... it's all speculation, nothing can be proven true, or farce.
What I do find strange, is the number of cultural coincedences. For example, the myth of dragons. They exist in every culture... and there's a number of ways that all those cultures could have the same kind of myth... but a lot of them are far-fetched... although, if you believe in multiple lives... it doesn't seem so impossible.
I guess I'm just really impartial on this, as much as I hate religious zealots, I know enough to say that science can't prove something that's nothing but speculation in either direction.
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Post by Surreptitious Cardboard Box on Sept 21, 2006 15:32:36 GMT
I have to admit, I entirely agree with Ramirez in this particular debate. I just see no point in any sort of afterlife or reincarnation. I mean, providing we do even have a soul, what would be the point in us dying if we were just going to come back to life again? We might as well just live forever in the first place. Like Ram said, hoping there's some sort of afterlife is like placing your faith in something you can't even be sure of, which is illogical.
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Ramirez
The Reincarnation Of Benjamin Breeg
Lucifer was just an angel that was led astray...
Posts: 575
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Post by Ramirez on Sept 21, 2006 16:05:51 GMT
I have to agree with the statement that we won't find out until we die... but I have one thing to say about science. In terms of Ghosts and such, we have found some pretty creepy things that we can't explain, sure, some is staged, but some of it also has reality to it. That, and sure, you can't scientifically prove that a higher power doesn't exist, and that when you die, you just die, or if something otherworldly happens. The thing is... you can't scientifically prove that those things DON'T happen. Science doesn't have a hold in that area, I know a lot of people are going to use that in their argument, but you really can't... you have to have some fact first, before you can use science to prove something, in this case... it's all speculation, nothing can be proven true, or farce. What I do find strange, is the number of cultural coincidences. For example, the myth of dragons. They exist in every culture... and there's a number of ways that all those cultures could have the same kind of myth... but a lot of them are far-fetched... although, if you believe in multiple lives... it doesn't seem so impossible. I guess I'm just really impartial on this, as much as I hate religious zealots, I know enough to say that science can't prove something that's nothing but speculation in either direction. Can't explain? Give me some examples. And I will rationalize them. And yeah most of it is staged and we're just being manipulated into thinking they really do exist. Conned in some cases. There are some paranormal 'investigators' that merely throw about the haunted word and then exorcise the 'ghost' away. Which is merely a confidence trick for the people living in the haunted place. Ah I suppose you do have a point but... My speculation seems good, no? Meh, it can be explained. There are various animals around the world which people could have simply just exaggerated on like you said a bit. And some of it could be down to coincidence and then there is also the possibility of cultures coming in contact with one another and the idea gets twisted as it moves onto another. Meh. I have to admit, I entirely agree with Ramirez in this particular debate. I just see no point in any sort of afterlife or reincarnation. I mean, providing we do even have a soul, what would be the point in us dying if we were just going to come back to life again? We might as well just live forever in the first place. Like Ram said, hoping there's some sort of afterlife is like placing your faith in something you can't even be sure of, which is illogical. Wooh, someone agrees! Finally. Which kinda makes me think. What is the soul's purpose. Doesn't really SEEM to have any. We can't pinpoint it so there is no soul. Its just come about due to religious thinking rubbing off. And then people tend to symbolize it so it gives it depth and so on in literary works and poetry etc... And thats right, if we did live on why don't we live on forever? Just seems stupid. I reckon we're merely deluding ourselves by giving ourselves way too much credit.
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Post by Richard El Britannia on Sept 21, 2006 16:31:02 GMT
You know ... you guys make me feel so depressed. ... Nah, just kidding, just your views.
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Ramirez
The Reincarnation Of Benjamin Breeg
Lucifer was just an angel that was led astray...
Posts: 575
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Post by Ramirez on Sept 21, 2006 16:32:41 GMT
LMAO, thats where it can be viewed differently. You can either look at it and say: "Crap, my life is going to be boring. Whats the point in living etc etc" OR You can look at it and say: "Well i got to live every one of my days to the fullest."
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Post by Richard El Britannia on Sept 21, 2006 16:44:51 GMT
You know what's really making me depressed is that I'm starting to believe what you say. It seems very logical and I tend to think logically, except on that one thing. My resolve has been broken. *Sigh* Oh well ... and in answer to your question, I want to go with the second point, but (here's where I go emo) I feel like the first one is more like me at the moment. With what I believed in before, I had hope. Ah well, this life has one thing in which I still need to accomplish, so I'll never completely agree with the first point, just find it hard to actually do the second point. ... Am I making any sense?
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Ramirez
The Reincarnation Of Benjamin Breeg
Lucifer was just an angel that was led astray...
Posts: 575
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Post by Ramirez on Sept 21, 2006 16:58:17 GMT
Yeah totally, its probbaly jsut this phase you go through. When I was around your age I kinda felt there should be an afterlife but i've just grown up, accepted differently and went 100% with resolve #2 I spoke of. And I just though. In religion, there are lots and lots of talk of going to either a heaven or a hell. Now this is what i'm thinking is weird. Do people of a different religion go to a different heaven and hell to that of someone of another religion? Meh. Just seems kinda stupid. In other words, one religion must be totally wrong, all of them are right and there are multiple gods playing us for fools OR religion is in wrong and there is no such thing as heaven or hell? Hmmm?
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Otzlowe
Enigmatic Horror
How many miles to heaven? I think I'm getting close.
Posts: 669
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Post by Otzlowe on Sept 21, 2006 17:39:11 GMT
Normally I'm the one who's going on about how relgion is enormously stupid... strange that it's not that way this time. I'm not going to side in either direction on this, since this is a kind of debate, that... no matter what someone says, you can't prove. In terms of souls; Can sience say with a definate fact that they don't exist? Not really. There are many things beyond science, and like I've said, trying to turn any kind of "paranormal" speculation into a fact, is rather... pointless. If someone comes out and tells me that, that kind of thing is just myth, and nothing more, without giving me any proven facts of how it's not real, my first intention would be to ignore the person.
All I can really say is, until there's 100% believeable information proving either side as fact or fiction... I don't really feel the need to waste life arguing about it. Like you say, "Live life to it's fullest." If you believe that there's no such thing as Religion, and it's beliefs in the first place, why waste breath arguing about it?
*Shrug* I'm not trying to bash anyone with this post... btw. It's just what I believe myself. >_>
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Ramirez
The Reincarnation Of Benjamin Breeg
Lucifer was just an angel that was led astray...
Posts: 575
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Post by Ramirez on Sept 21, 2006 17:55:35 GMT
Well considering where souls originated from and the concept of them (which is mostly religion) I believe that they too are just figments of those who chose to believe in them. You've pretty much got it as a draw there about not being able to prove so... I am just going to stick with what I feel is right. Although... If I have enough time and look into things I am probably gonna be able to find some way to change that. You can't chose either side and what is fact or fiction? Well... Thats a bit hard then and it comes down to the "If you die and then find out there is an afterlife you can think about how right you are if there isn't... Well you're not going to have to dwell on it". And the reason I am wasting breath? Well, I wanted to see if I could actually unravel it and make any sense in it and I have found a logical explanation I actually can live by. And besides... This is a debate. You gotta have at least two sides to properly have a good debate. XP
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Otzlowe
Enigmatic Horror
How many miles to heaven? I think I'm getting close.
Posts: 669
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Post by Otzlowe on Sept 21, 2006 18:04:00 GMT
*Shrug* I can't help but think there just isn't a way to prove it. Mostly because I don't believe in religion in the first place... even so, my will to not care overrides my sense of not believing in the far-fetched stories created by religion. I'll find out, when I find out, eh? *Shrug* If there is an after life, I probably wouldn't feel better about myself, if there weren't one. It's just one of those, "It's there if it's there" things. Ah... all I meant was, for many people... if they believe strongly enough one way or another, they don't even feel the need to debate. I don't mind debates at all, however... I love them, because I love to see people put their mind to something, and just be generally intelligent. I don't have a problem with the debate at all. XD
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Post by Surreptitious Cardboard Box on Sept 22, 2006 15:59:04 GMT
Even if it is impossible to prove either way, like Ram said, it's nice just to talk about it so that we can make our own thoughts clearer. That's one of the main reasons why I took Philosophy. And thats right, if we did live on why don't we live on forever? Just seems stupid. I reckon we're merely deluding ourselves by giving ourselves way too much credit. Yeah, relying on something like a life after death (which would technically be a life after life - as death lasts a second and then you've come back to life again, somewhere else -, and so surely that is a contradiction?), just because you're scared about dying and never being around ever again, is weak.
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Post by Richard El Britannia on Sept 22, 2006 17:01:01 GMT
Scared about dying or not being around? Oh no, I'm scared of what being nothing is. If we just die, then ... I don't know how to word it, but when we die, if there's nothing after, then ... Well, you get me.
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Zombie
Killer Corpse
Posts: 37
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Post by Zombie on Sept 22, 2006 17:05:19 GMT
What are your views? Are you religious? well i tried the church thing. it didnt seem to help my life out any. i think my life is better without religious interference. since there is nothing out there that represents my feelings in life.
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